Curse

Blackhawk · Apr 07, 2007, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourne

My thoughts too Shmanka. All they need is the old SR, no energy from spirits, and 1/4-1/2 from minions.

Works for me

Blackhawk · Apr 07, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Most classes bring energy management or energy reducers why cant the Necro?

Because we invested points in Soul Reaping for energy management as theres hardly any e-management skills on a Necro Primary.

Why should I now invest more points in a secondary profession for e-management seeing as my Primary attribute is based upon getting energy from things dying.

To Quote A-net:

Necromancers keep their Energy bars full with Soul Reaping, the primary Necromancer attribute, which feeds upon the deaths of others.

Dont see "BTW must also bring e-management skills" in there.......

(Even though I do, it shouldnt be an additional requirement)

olly123 · Apr 07, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

ORBITUARY

RIP

here lies the the remians of the necromancer class.

after dealing and succeeding on deaths, through soul reaping it has been killed off by its creators.

'book'em danno. murder 1' (famous phrase from hawaii 5 0)

but its not basicly u just need to use energy management, Where eles have "uber" 80-100 energy it doesnt stop them runnign out, what does is

[skill]Elemental Attunement[/skill] and the rest fo the attuemenrts. monsk use GoLE mesmers use the insperation line. we all need skills for energy maintainment. why shoudl a necro have full energy almost ll the time. and how many tiems do u find al lthe foes die in one big group, unless mas farming or agaisnt low level foes???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Because we invested points in Soul Reaping for energy management as theres hardly any e-management skills on a Necro Primary.

Why should I now invest more points in a secondary profession for e-management seeing as my Primary attribute is based upon getting energy from things dying.

u dotn ahve to invest attra butes all u need is

[skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill], so u can no longer echo SS but it doesnt matter so much u can cast 2 for 10 energy

ss1986v2 · Apr 07, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Works for me

me too. that would be my ideal change: zero energy from spirts, 1/2 energy from your minions, and 1/4 or zero from any one else's minions.

i just think its funny that ppl are willing to set the interweb on fire over this kind of change. rants, raves, SR/Necromancer obituaries (my favorite!), threats, foul language, ect...

it all just makes my giggle.

elsalamandra · Apr 07, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Olly123

I understand what you say mate

if you have a necro, go to domain of secrets to farm lb points.

see for yourself what happens with the energy enviroment effect and try to run either a MM build or SS build and see it for yourself what, on an extreme like that, what this nerf has done to the necro.

Its great that they have reduced energy costs on some of the minions but still this is tottaly uncompareable to what the nerf has done.

the solution is not to go anymore to domain of secrets

Raxxman · Apr 07, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

Because we invested points in Soul Reaping for energy management as theres hardly any e-management skills on a Necro Primary.

Hardly any? Blood is power, offering of blood, signet of lost souls, blood rit spring to mind.

Blackhawk · Apr 07, 2007, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Since when does BiP/BR work on the caster then?

Kfoolu · Apr 07, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helcaraxe

oh no! SR doesnt have any good skills in it is your complaint now.... FEEL MY PAIN!!!! FAST CASTING HAS NEVER HAD ANY GOOD SKILLS IN IT!

Of course FC has had good skills!What about Power Return?Or Persistence Of Memory?"Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, whenever a Spell you cast is interrupted, that Spell is instantly recharged."
You're going to say that's not a useful skill?
And let's not forget MoR. If you don't have that, you shouldn't even THINK about being a Domination Mesmer!
And now let's look at SR...Useful skills...ummm...Well...Signet of Lost Souls, I guess...Anything else?

targetdrone · Apr 07, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Basically Anet seems to be nerfing stuff so they are "OK" in the abused scenarios AND not caring whether they become _crap_ in the nonabused scenarios.

Mesmers:
They overpowered Mantra of Recovery so Diversion and other stuff became unbalanced when used with MoR.

So now they nerf Diversion etc.

Necromancers:
They allow deaths of spirits (even friendly ones) to provide energy to Soul Reaping. This causes problems with spirit spam in PvP.

So now they nerf Soul Reaping.

If Anet actually had a history of knowing what they were doing with skill balancing, AND actually testing stuff (or just thinking things through) then my response would be different. As it is, it just seems like they break stuff, then they break even more stuff to "fix things".

Spirit spamming in PvP will still work with the Soul Reaping changes, so I don't see how the nerf fixes PvP. Why not just fix the energy gain from spirits instead? I don't see spirit spam as being just a worthy PvP tactic to preserve at the cost of annoying so many more people in PvE. Decent PvP players will just come up with yet another "unbalanced" team build anyway

.

Why should PvPers care if SR makes PvE "too easy", when _most_ of the PvE'ers don't care? The last I checked DoA wasn't super easy anyway. Would keeping SR as it was in PvE make PvE players less likely to buy the next GW edition or more likely?

seut · Apr 07, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Ritualist
THey dont have an e-management PRIMARY, guess what because soul reaping is a an attribute it will work on its own without u worrying about it.

Ritualist is a poor rip-off of the WoW shaman class with their totem poles with two poor versions of air-spike & heal added to their repertoire. Bad design like many things of the Factions campaign.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Other Primary's have been nerfed
Look at the Dervish.

When was that? Changes during beta times before release don't count.
The only primary that was altered i know of is Expertise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Most classes bring energy management or energy reducers why cant the Necro?

Because it's done to limit the effectiveness of a GIMMICK. In a few weeks nobody in PvP will use Necros and there will be another gimmick and the cycle will continue from start. PvE Necros will continue limping around.

Is SR a powerful primary attribute? YES, as are Expertise and Energy Storage. But it is a conditional energy gain and the condition takes 5secs timeouts now.

Is it overpowered? NO! Overpowered would mean that every skill of a profession would be best used with the profession. Guess what blood line touch skills see more use on ranger...

If there is a need to change primary attributes, it should be a buff to Fast Casting & Spawning Power. Strength is fine since warriors are still the highest dps machines.

When a developer balances a shooter for competition, you wouldn't accept that your rail gun would shoot 5 blanks after one successful hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrath Of Dragons

04/06 Guild Wars Game Update
Update - Friday April 6
* Removed the Death Penalty from the following Heroes' Ascent missions: Broken Tower, the Courtyard, and the Hall of Heroes.

PvP is too imbalanced to cope with a basic game mechanic...

hallomik · Apr 07, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

....
These changes will remain in place for the week, and if they are successful, they will remain in the game permanently.
....
In our next update, we hope to add additional PvE-only skills to allow more attractive options for cooperative play, as well as begin adjusting some skills to make them more viable in cooperative play.
....
Soul Reaping: now only provides Energy at a maximum rate of once every 5 seconds. Soul Reaping's synergy with Spirits and minions opened up a lot of builds that simply never ran out of power. Spirits still provide half Energy, and with Soul Reaping's Energy gain limited, a player death will now provide more net Energy, which we believe will help Soul Reaping get closer to its intended function.

I'd like to lodge a criticism at the way ANET has communicated the Soul Reaping change.

Before I do so, let me say that I generally favor the change because:

1) Players were exploiting spirit spamming in PVP.
2) Players were too heavily relying on the overpowered Minion Master in PVE.

I don't want to debate that opinion as it is heavily travelled ground.

My criticism is that the way this was communicated has set the PVE community against the PVP community and vice versa. Here are my criticisms:

1) It is poorly explained. Take this sentence "Spirits still provide half Energy, and with Soul Reaping's Energy gain limited, a player death will now provide more net Energy, which we believe will help Soul Reaping get closer to its intended function." A casual reading of this implies Anet boosted energy from player / non-spirit deaths offsetting the impact of the nerf. As we all know from testing, this is not true and led players to a false belief in the severity of the nerf.

2) It is buried. Most of the other communicated changes were boosts to lesser used skills. This is a class-altering change to a primary attribute. Anet should have provided more explanation of the thinking behind the change.

3) It set the PVE community against the PVP. What the quoted text above does, besides being buried in a long list of very minor skill changes and being confusingly worded, is imply that something PVP players were exploiting has resulted in a Nerf to PVE. If ANET had simply come out and said, "This skill is being exploited in PVP AND is overpowered in PVE," then the two communities wouldn't be at each others throats right now. More player unhappiness would go to Anet (as always happens during a nerf - needed or not). The way this was communicated makes is seem as if PVE'ers should blame PVP'ers.

As I said, I actually agree with the "spirit" of the change (maybe 4 seconds would be better), but feel Anet did not communicate it well.

On a tagential topic, I am very curious about the PVE-only skills coming. Are we going to get aggro-management that force mobs to attack a specific target, charm monster skills that temporarily convert an enemy to your side, fear commands that cause mobs to flee? These skills would totally imbalance PVP, but make for very interesting PVE tactics.

wayn3h · Apr 07, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

QQ more please people. It's funny.

olly123 · Apr 07, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

Olly123

I understand what you say mate

if you have a necro, go to domain of secrets to farm lb points.

see for yourself what happens with the energy enviroment effect and try to run either a MM build or SS build and see it for yourself what, on an extreme like that, what this nerf has done to the necro.

Its great that they have reduced energy costs on some of the minions but still this is tottaly uncompareable to what the nerf has done.

the solution is not to go anymore to domain of secrets

i have a necro but im only got here s far as to farm with a 55 in TOA :P, lame i know but there r tiems whe ni run here around and play in tyria with her for the fun of it. but if u take any clase into domain od scerets ( expeshaly a monk) ur see the effect it has on them, it kills my monsk energy as it is , with a 36 target energy im having to constantly swap up cos hero/hencyway r almost as think as pugs.

on the minion part thats a nice buff, i have yet to try MM's since the update, but the nerf to curses energy spell cast has hit that one bad, the combo for SS/RH is now 30 energy, witch is a right shame, atleast u can use [skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill] to limit it down to 10 energy.

one thing i dislike about this nerf, it has turned all the necros in to crying babies ( ok not all but a fiar few). cant u put ur minds together and coem up with a new build, SS and MMs have been running havock for to long now.need new cooky cutter builds. cos the more u complane the more ur starting to sound like these "dreaded" PVP's uve been saying about how its there fault for the nerf. but cant u grow up and havea look around, its what we did when farmign got its nerf with the AoE ( please dont flame me tho no dout u will :P)

free_fall · Apr 07, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

And if anet put the 5 sec timer on every prof's primary attribute benefit, the rest of you would turn into "crying babies" just as quickly.

cthulhu reborn · Apr 07, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

I just hate the change to soul reaping. If the idea was to nerf it so badly for a week so that people would end up being happy when they'll just announce that SR no longer gets benefits from dying spirits, well, I think it's the wrong tactics they used.

With all the good stuff in the last update simply doing that would've hardly upset a soul. Now you have a lot of upset people, myself included, that suddenly have a hard time enjoying the game...and what for? An unreasonable nerf as a reaction to a PvP problem that could've been fixed much easier and with much less of a nerf.

It does make you wonder if some of these things are play-tested properly before they try it out on us...

around · Apr 07, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Of course FC has had good skills!What about Power Return?Or Persistence Of Memory?"Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, whenever a Spell you cast is interrupted, that Spell is instantly recharged."
You're going to say that's not a useful skill?

Lol, you're funny mate. Compare that with something like Glyph of Concentration, Mantra of Concentration or Mantra of Resolve and tell me which is better.

olly123 · Apr 07, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by free_fall

And if anet put the 5 sec timer on every prof's primary attribute benefit, the rest of you would turn into "crying babies" just as quickly.

not really cos not all of them need the nerf, actualy cant think of any that do :P.

ur just upset that ur nice easy game has become a it more chalanging. so what i u cant keep this 10 minion army up 24/7 or cant cast 4 SS on a bunch of foes. ur just have to adapt liek we all have. i run a necro also, ive gotten over the nerf becuase ive edeted a build or to to alow my necro to face losts of baddies with out major energy crises, and if i remember correct the SS had to was all of his energy b4 to cast such moves to b affective but if u do run into energy probles take [skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill] as psoted alrdy but it helsp to post things a few times

. also it did seem b4 the update that a necor with a MM could keep his energy up aoce 30 a majorty of the time. this is the only characters in guildwars that can. so in a sence there over powered, they keep energy up and an army. monks who need the energy most cant they constantly have to spam skills witch drains energy. but they have leart with skisll such as channaling/GoLE u can keep ur energy up.( keep that in mind)

cyberjanet · Apr 07, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

ORBITUARY

RIP

here lies the the remians of the necromancer class.

after dealing and succeeding on deaths, through soul reaping it has been killed off by its creators.

Hear hear!
Why not just abolish necromancers seeing as they've been causing so much trouble in PvP? When we next log on, we can get the option to change our primary class to W/Mo or disappear forever.

Rakeman · Apr 07, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raxxman

Hardly any? Blood is power, offering of blood, signet of lost souls, blood rit spring to mind.

I LOL'd at that. Actually, I still am. XD

Avarre · Apr 07, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by free_fall

And if anet put the 5 sec timer on every prof's primary attribute benefit, the rest of you would turn into "crying babies" just as quickly.

Because putting a 5 second delay on fast casting, or energy storage, is really an accurate comparitive change. What kind of argument is that?

I really don't see how the change is that big...? You can't use expensive skills without management, or in areas with energy reducing effects? Neither can any other class. Necromancers do not have a special class requirement to burn more energy - and SR still provides more effect than several other primary attributes, without even using skills from the line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

If ANET had simply come out and said, "This skill is being exploited in PVP AND is overpowered in PVE,"

I think the problem is in most cases, decent players can see that this is the case anyway and most others refuse to do the same.